tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post6320071112573132891..comments2023-06-17T08:53:42.643-04:00Comments on ShysterBall: Curt Flood Does Not Belong in the Hall of FameCraig Calcaterrahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00190345915954808542noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-87439830048363507892008-04-24T11:58:00.000-04:002008-04-24T11:58:00.000-04:00I understand that view, Aquaman, and there are cer...I understand that view, Aquaman, and there are certainly varying definitions of what constitutes a "Hall of Famer." I probably fall on the side -- ever so slightly -- of a more selective Hall, and I'm not sure that I would have included Rizzuto, even if I understand why he was elected and why people feel it was the right call.<BR/><BR/>That said, even under my own slightly stringent standards, both Rizutto and O'Neil have stronger Hall cases than Flood. Rizutto at least won an MVP award, and scores slightly higher on the Hall Monitor and Standards tests (for whatever that's worth).<BR/><BR/>Even if you discount O'Neil's on the field accomplishments (which I have no basis for doing; I simply don't know enough about them), the fact remains that his "intangible contributions" to use Rhoden's term, was greater than Flood's, both as a trailblazing scout and coach, and as an ambassador for the game through his work with the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum.<BR/><BR/>These are obviously subjective calls, but then again, so are the actual BBWAA votes.Craig Calcaterrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00190345915954808542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-61618346955711502452008-04-24T11:44:00.000-04:002008-04-24T11:44:00.000-04:00We found room in the Hall for Phil Rizzuto, and sh...We found room in the Hall for Phil Rizzuto, and should've found room for Buck O'Neil. Curt Flood deserves a spot in Cooperstown alongside those two men. There's nothing wrong with bending standards a bit to make room for good players who made a great impact on the game.Aquamanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03495193223549797349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-34369202090331399512008-04-22T12:36:00.000-04:002008-04-22T12:36:00.000-04:00Weird. I can only imagine that the poster subscri...Weird. I can only imagine that the poster subscribes to the erroneous theory that "fame" means famous in that context.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I guess that is why I require people to sign into Google before they can comment. Of course, this is all academic as no one reads my site.Jon Shepherdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03521809778977098687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-25802204236900311692008-04-22T10:34:00.000-04:002008-04-22T10:34:00.000-04:00Mac -- Though I think he'd have a better argument ...Mac -- Though I think he'd have a better argument than Flood, I think if Andruw didn't play another game then no, he's not a hall of famer. As much as I've enjoyed him over the years, the peak, in my mind, was not high enough to sustain the relatively short duration of his career. While I think counting stats can be overrated, they do indicate value, and Jones just isn't there yet.<BR/><BR/>Thinking of it another way, I -- as you -- have watched him for 13 seasons now, and I can't say I've ever sat back and said "you know, Andruw's a Hall of Famer!" I HAVE said "you know, Andruw will probably go to the Hall of Fame," but that was based on the implicit assumption that he'd hit 500 home runs or something due to his durability and early start.<BR/><BR/>If,as I fear, he's truly falling off a cliff now, then I think it's a no go. If he rights the ship and puts up another five years of 25+ homers, then yes, I can totally see it.Craig Calcaterrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00190345915954808542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-70597576955340965472008-04-22T10:17:00.000-04:002008-04-22T10:17:00.000-04:00So, I thought, "Maybe Craig should compare Flood t...So, I thought, "Maybe Craig should compare Flood to <A HREF="http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp.cgi?I=floodcu01:Curt+Flood&st=int&compage=30&age=30" REL="nofollow">his most-similar players through Age 30</A>, maybe he'll look better that way." No dice. Only two of those listed, Bell and Buckner, could be called even marginal HOF candidates, and that's stretching it. Flood has advantages over them, of course -- defense -- and he had his prime in a pitcher-friendly period, but he just wasn't anything special as a hitter. Would you put Andruw Jones in the Hall if he retired today? Andruw is -- well, was -- a much better hitter than Flood was, and defensively...Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03092217234287469255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-18188862833400619582008-04-22T09:47:00.000-04:002008-04-22T09:47:00.000-04:00i think it might have been Dale Petroskey.i think it might have been <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Petroskey" REL="nofollow">Dale Petroskey.</A>dubbschismhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06064903879939175499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-41893308636828075982008-04-22T09:21:00.000-04:002008-04-22T09:21:00.000-04:00Okay, everyone all together - Kumbaya, my Lord, Ky...Okay, everyone all together - <BR/><BR/><BR/>Kumbaya, my Lord, Kymbaya ....Ron Rollinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16852012772573977515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-37648730265116242262008-04-22T08:55:00.000-04:002008-04-22T08:55:00.000-04:00Someone shouldn't be running on caffeine at 2 a.m....Someone shouldn't be running on caffeine at 2 a.m. (not that I haven't done it plenty) and then go on to read "discussion" material and find it horribly offensive. Hopefully he's getting some sleep now and will wake up with a reasonable head. Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (or the blog equivalent)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-25369355885828664242008-04-22T06:03:00.000-04:002008-04-22T06:03:00.000-04:00anon -- Not sure what's "ugly" about the post, but...anon -- Not sure what's "ugly" about the post, but hey, to each their own.Craig Calcaterrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00190345915954808542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-37701023622319550832008-04-22T02:22:00.000-04:002008-04-22T02:22:00.000-04:00^^^Que? I don't understand run-on sentences.^^^<BR/><BR/>Que? I don't understand run-on sentences.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-46471300202067033272008-04-22T01:55:00.000-04:002008-04-22T01:55:00.000-04:00Not that I'm all hot for Flood to get into the HoF...Not that I'm all hot for Flood to get into the HoF, which really isn't an honor of much import but rather a reason to demean those whose opinions of "value" you disagree with (putting Kuhn in the HoF finished making it the distateful joke it has been headed toward for two decades), but your post represents the most casual ugliness that now dominates most baseball "discussion" and the other people who post here drag it to the bottom of the baseball-talk sewer.<BR/><BR/> Enough. I will not be back. Enjoy the circle jerk, though. Really.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-42079863084011026962008-04-21T21:46:00.000-04:002008-04-21T21:46:00.000-04:00Alex -- Glad you liked it. There are a lot of Kelt...Alex -- Glad you liked it. There are a lot of Keltner lists floating around the web, though, and many are far more rigorous than mine. Of course, when the occasion calls for it, I'll whip one out again.Craig Calcaterrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00190345915954808542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-23963928543397238862008-04-21T20:30:00.000-04:002008-04-21T20:30:00.000-04:00If you really want to point to a player who was th...If you really want to point to a player who was the key turning point in free agency, you could do a lot worse than Catfish Hunter. Hunter actually succeeded in getting himself made a free agent. His enormous payday- by far the largest contract in baseball history when he signed it- did more to convince the players of the value of free agency than Flood's unsuccessful challenge.Roger Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07864369467434809400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-58039659077254898522008-04-21T18:45:00.000-04:002008-04-21T18:45:00.000-04:00Shyster, you should write more of these. If you h...Shyster, you should write more of these. If you have already written several, could you point me to them in the archive?Alex Brissettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00086579343090860001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-52735354357316127942008-04-21T18:03:00.000-04:002008-04-21T18:03:00.000-04:00If Flood goes in for the changes he brought about,...If Flood goes in for the changes he brought about, and not his playing, then people will start clamoring for Miler to go in. And then Fehr. Neither one belong. <BR/><BR/>If they really feel the need to do it, create a Curt Flood award for those players that did something to change the game. But no plaque. <BR/><BR/>'cause if Buck O'Neil isn't good enough to get in for all he did, then neither should any of the goes who are known for labor issues.Ron Rollinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16852012772573977515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9131289420618991795.post-57666385536130122222008-04-21T17:24:00.000-04:002008-04-21T17:24:00.000-04:00I just don't see the argument for Flood. He didn'...I just don't see the argument for Flood. He didn't usher in the modern labor / management balance. That was Miller, Messersmith, and Seitz. Flood argued that the reserve clause was illegal. The Messersmith arbitration decision and subsequent enforcement through the Courts, Lockouts, and Strikes, was on a different issue - not that it was illegal, but that it was limited contractually to one year.<BR/><BR/>Want to enshrine an on-field figure for leading the way to free agency? Why not Andy Messersmith? For the two year period '74-'75, he arguably was the best pitcher in the NL (finishing 1 & 2 in IP, 2 & 5 in ERA, and 1 and 3 in wins) And his role, unlike Flood's, did not lead to a legal deadend.<BR/><BR/>Of course Messersmith doesn't belong. But he is as deserving as Flood, if not more so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com